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About catherine conkey

Catherine is a longtime friend of Jerry’s (28 years!) and wife of Jerry’s operations manager, Gary. Catherine has run her own photography business for over 12 years. She joins us to share some insight into running a creative business, her ups and downs in business and to share some old stories about Jerry.

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Good. Cool. We lit up [inaudible] we are live. Perfect. Let’s do this. Do it. Let’s do it. Alright, we are excited about this one because we have our first guest is guest is here today. Catherine conky bow. Catherine, by way of introduction, you met Billy. I did not even an hour or half an hour ago, uh, and minutes ago. Catherine and I, Billy you just by introduction for you and for the listeners, uh, her husband, Gary and I have worked together since I think 1989 maybe 1990. How long have you two been together? We’ve been together 28 years, so, so as long, almost pretty much as long as I’ve known Gary. Right on. Do you two have known each other? So that’s how far back Katherine and Gary and I go back is, it is 28 years. And Gary is a operations manager here and he and I again worked for a courier company before and then Gary moved over when I started a different company and that company then morphed into this company and we’ve told those stories. And along the way I got stuck with Gary, but I got cash.

Aw. Yeah. I can tell you Jerry stories too from way back, but I won’t, you can’t get the first time. So tell, tell us about the podcast you’ve been listening to them in anticipation of coming in. What do you think? Yeah, I love it. I actually, my favorite actually favorite thing about it is how authentic they are. Um, I didn’t know what to expect going into this at all. I was concerned it was going to be maybe a little bit like an interview format, but what I loved about listening to is how conversational, how interactive you are. I mean, it’s just exactly like sitting and talking with Jerry, listening to Jerry Talk. Um, except that I don’t get to interject. So now I get to interject just like I would if we were sitting across the table talking. It’s not like you to interject. Nah. Yeah.

I have had some fantastic conversations over the years. And I think the neat thing about my relationship with Catherine, and again this, this has some business context, we should say right up front in that Catherine has started at businesses and still has businesses and Gary and Catherine have failed at businesses and redone the business and start it all over again. So she has a wealth of information, uh, on the things that, uh, that take place when you are trying to start something from scratch on multiple levels. But then just on the other side, and again, part of this podcast is just the story of life in the game of life and the different things that come with it and with life comes relationships. And, uh, I’m always preaching about the importance of relationship to Billy and to the people that listen, uh, and how they affect you even in business.

Uh, and Catherine has been one of those relationships for me that I would say that when we started 28 years ago, we could not have been more diametrically opposed, I think, to each other. How we think probably politically, uh, uh, specifically. And it’s a real interesting how always friendly. Oh, absolutely. We would every now and then get a little heated but always friendly and over years it’s really changed. I think we probably think more alike. I think we both kind of come together as, as tends to happen as you get older and we’ve kind of met in the middle and now we kind of exchange views more than argue about views and, and uh, it’s been one of those fantastic relationships that you get to have that can only take place over time. Right? You can’t do this over a year, even two years. We’re talking about multiples of decades and I say to my kids all the time, I have my buddy Mike and Mike worked with me at Mcdonald’s when I was 16 years old.

And Catherine of course knows Mike and I don’t know if you’ve met Mike yet. No, he works all the time. But Mike and I go back to when I was 16 years old. And it think about how many people do you have that are close friends that you have your whole life essentially. And it’s very rare. It’s very rare to have one. They say like, I can like Mike, he goes back to 16 years old. I have friends that I went to school with that you can talk to and that sort of thing. But I mean, true friends and Katherine and Gary and I have now been friends going on three decades. Um, and I, I just don’t think that those things happen. And it’s one of those benefits in life that a, you’re fortunate enough to run across people like that, particularly when we have differences of opinions. So that’s kind of the background. Um, well from my perspective with Gary and Katherine, so when we started this podcast and we finally got comfortable doing it and we started getting into the twenties, I was like, all right, we need when he’d, uh, guests. So who’s our first guests going to be? Uh, that can bring a little bit of everything and boom, that was Catherine. Yeah.

Really honored. There you go. I just got to add onto what you said. Um, I think that part of the reason why our relationship has grown and endured and our friendship is so rich is that there is a mutual respect so we can, uh, differ and that doesn’t really matter. I mean, that’s part of life. You’re talking about life, right? But there’s a respect. You always respectfully listen to me, right? And I hopefully you feel like I respectfully listen to you, um, and learn a lot from you and in today’s

a world where everything is so hyper partisan. Yeah. Right. It seems like even things that aren’t political have become partisan, uh, being able to have conversations. Let’s see, let’s say, Billy, if you weren’t into making money or capitalism or business in general, and you are completely against that, how much richer would the conversation between us be if we could have those conversations amicably and respectfully?

Definitely super valuable because it, it opens you up to opinions, but I think you need a certain mindset in the certain types of people to be open to those opinions. Yeah,

that’s exactly right. And so that would be a characterization of, of our relationship. And I think that’s why it’s been as rich as it has been very. And it’s, it’s, it’s amazing that this much time has gone by 30 years already. Yeah. So, so we, I started out by asking you about our podcast. So one of the things that I hear about the podcast, particularly from my kids is that I’m so forceful, right? And this is what I hear. I have friends all over the country and that, you know, as I’ve gotten friends to listen to it, listen to me, I get the same thing. You know, that I’m, that it’s, it’s, it can sound harsh, so I’m trying to not be harsh. I’m trying to be honest. And I come from a place that is so far away from where I am and you’ve kind of seen that over the years. Uh, and so you have that inside baseball knowledge on the podcast. But, uh, one of the words you said, I think you said as it comes through as authentic,

absolutely, absolutely. Very authentic and that you have a vulnerability. Um, that’s not a word I get associated with me very often. So I take that to your podcast. I, you’re willing to say somebody waving. Yeah. They’re willing to, uh, be really introspective, look at yourself and be really raw and really honest, uh, and right in front of you know, the world and everybody, not just across the table from me when we’re having a good conversation, right? So when I set off Fenech I’m talking about all of that. Listening to your podcasts are just exactly like listening to you and discussing things with you in real life. I mean, you are open and honest and um, I know that were, you’re not gonna use the word for yourself vulnerable because I know you really well, but there is a vulnerability to that. Not everybody does that

well. And I think the lesson there and there, there’s a big business lessons to be gleaned from that and that is that I preach introspection and self awareness. And as you know, I think that there is nobody, I, I have a hard time ever meeting anybody. If I could brag about myself, that’s half as self aware or how fas half as introspective as I am, I just, my feelings can’t be hurt. And so I want to, if I’m not doing something wrong or if I’m not doing something right or I have to correct something that I’ve done or I’ve made a mistake and it needs to be fixed, that to me is living when you’re younger. When I was 25 years old, I was in cordial, right? I think the way that you described me today, and this is an important lesson for everybody at when I was 25 I was an animal.

And now in the intervening 24 years, so say 25 years life experiences that I’ve learned and I’ve taken and that I’ve put them to work so much. So now that where I am now, I’m able to correct and listen and learn and be open to being wrong. And then when I was 25 years old, you couldn’t tell me Shit, right? I knew everything, right? Cause as a kid from the streets that made a couple of dollars and crawled my way halfway up. And you take that and you go, well I know everything. And there’s one thing I’ve learned as I’ve said before, you don’t know shit til you’re 40. Right? I, I got good. They used to tell me that all the time. I’d be managing 150 people when I was 30 years old. And I always had to listen. Okay Jerry. But you know, my CEO group would tell me, you don’t know shit.

I go, what do you mean you don’t know shit until you’re 40 God, I used to just rail against that. There’s one truth that I know in this universe to be 100% true and that’s that you don’t know shit, uh, until you’re 40. And so for me, that maturity, I’m, I’m, I’m happy to hear you say that because that’s the maturity that I try to, um, live or to have attained and to hear that now, um, vulnerabilities, kind of a hard word for me to I am honest is probably a better word I would use. But I see your point. Um, that’s, that’s about as high compliments I can get, cause that’s what I’m trying and that’s what this podcast is all about is just telling the fucking truth. If that hurts somebody’s feelings. I’m sorry. That’s too bad. If you don’t agree, that’s great.

Um, I, I’m happy. Let’s have that conversation and I’ll have that spirited debate with you, but let’s, let’s tell it like it is without any bullshit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. So you have some interesting experiences in business and since this is a primary business podcasts, let’s talk about some of those and some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way. So let me just give a five second overview on the one specifically that I’m talking about. Okay. There’s two. There’s the, uh, you bought the big loom, the big guy. Yeah. Right. And then you did the, the, the photo business. Yes. And the photo business probably was more along the lines of what somebody’s listening to this would probably listen to, or if Billy was going to go out and, and, and start a business. Tell me about the, you know, let’s talk about that a little bit in some of the pitfalls and some of the, the items that you ran into. If somebody were starting a business, it, Billy was to go out, he’s 25 years old and go start a business, what would Katherine tell him based on his or her experience with bridal photography or photography in general?

Oh yeah. You know, I, listened to the podcast where you talked about, um, how you’re learning and so you’re just sharing, um, you’re open to opportunities that come to you. Um, even if it’s like not a paid gig. Yeah. But it’s something you’ve never done. It’s something excites you. It’s something that you could learn from. Um, I know that’s how I started when I got into photography too. I’d always wanted to do it. I always told everybody that’s what I want to do. And I finally took a big plunge. Um, I bought all the really expensive equipment first before I really even knew it. So I was forced into it. You know, I bought it, I had to learn it and then I just looked for every opportunity I could get to shoot and learn more and more. How long ago was that you started? That was a almost 12 years ago.

12 years ago. I don’t know. We won’t, we won’t give away your age, but suffice it to say it was over 30. Yeah. Right. It was over 30. The point being that you don’t have to be young. No. Right. You could start this at any time as long as it’s, it’s, it’s something you want to do and you feel passionate about. But it wasn’t without its pitfalls.

No, no. I made giant, giant mistakes. Um, which I don’t know if I should tell you all of them going,

yeah, we don’t have all night Catholic, but no, but I think that’s the point. Share with us.

Yeah. I’ll start with saying that, that I’m glad I did it. I’m glad I jumped in. I’m glad I bought all the equipment. It forced me to learn it and it forced me to, I mean, I was committed. So I don’t think that that was a bad decision and I bought the best, absolutely the best that I could afford. So that was a really, really good

decision. Is, is it, is it, I’m sorry, let me interrupt you. Is it fair to say that you bought the best that you couldn’t afford? Yes, that’s fair. That’s probably a better way

that I couldn’t afford. Yes. Yeah. And then, um, I would say that mistakes started happening when I grew a little bit too quickly. I knew a lot of people in the wedding industry. I was very lucky. Um, I had officiated weddings for 12 years and I had established some really good relationships. So when I learned my equipment, when I learned my craft, when I had done enough free work, when I felt like I could do a really nice end product for brides and grooms that wanted the type of work that I did, um, and I took the plunge, I would say it grew more a little bit more rapidly than I thought. And I ended up having to hire an employee to help and then all of a sudden that sort of cut into money that I was making. Um, so it was like a fine balance between how much work to take on and how much work not to take on.

And I was really fortunate because now photography industry, particularly wedding photography is inundated. I mean, everybody’s a wedding photographer. I go to the bank, um, the person behind the cashier says, oh, what do you do? And I say photography. And they say, oh, that’s what I’ve always wanted to do. That’s what my sister does. That’s what my mother does. That’s what my daughter does. I mean, everybody you run into is either photographer or wants to be photographer. And it seems like some lifetimes, Billy knows what I’m talking about. Yeah. So now it’s, I mean, I had a high class problem then with too much work because now it’s hard. It’s hard to get in. But I had the right hands. So I would say that balancing my time when they’re busy spots was a problem. Spending too much money, uh, hiring stuff out. Just not yet.

Go ahead. Let’s go back to to uh, one of the things that I’ve preached from day one that you said right at the beginning, I want to make a point out of it, which is that you went and bought the stuff before you had work. You bought the product, you bought the camera, she bought the standards, you bought the lights, you bought everything you needed and you bought way over what you could afford so that you were all in. I was all in some of the Instagram posts that we’ve done and some of the conversations that Billy and I have had over the years or over the podcast is me saying, people think you, there’s a school of thought out there in the business community, if you will, in the consultant world. You know, all of these inspirational and one of the things that they, they generally tell you is that you should get six months worth of expenses before you start anything and have this perfectly laid out plan before you start anything and try to figure out every mistake that you might make and do all of your research.

And spend all of this time. And I’m the guy that says climb up the fucking diving board. Interesting. On the deep end and huck yourself in the Walker. Yeah. Because you can sit and plan and strategize and think about it. And from a million ways to Sunday couldn’t you absolutely never do anything. Do anything. Cause you can always find a reason not to you. Okay. Didn’t do that. Now, what if you had, do you think you would have used that if you, if you spent the time, cause I know you, so I think I know the answer, but had you spent the time thinking about it and strategizing it and tried to come up with it and getting some sense of what it would cost and what, what the end result would be, would you have done it?

I don’t think so. I think that’s a really good question. Right? And I’m pretty confident of that answer because I’d been saying it for 11 years before I started doing it. This is what I’ve always wanted to do. This is what I want to do is before you did it. Yeah. I was, uh, I photographed, um, started photographing weddings, but prior to that I officiated wedding. So I’ve actually been to over a wedding, over a thousand weddings. Wow. Farming, wedding ceremonies. And I would follow the photographer around, watch what they were doing and tell them how I want to do what you’re doing. I want to do what you’re doing. And I think that I would still be saying that had I not just taken the plunge and certainly not now because there’s so much competition.

What was the trigger then after 11 years that you were like, all right.

Oh, um, the digital cameras got really good and um, I was able to learn it faster because of that film is harder, right? Digital Cameras, you can look, you know, Billy knows Billy, you can look right immediately and see if your f stop is off and your aperture setting and your ISO and all of that stuff. So the learning curve was good. How much is in focus and if it’s too dark or if it’s too bright. Yeah. And then I bought Photoshop and buying Photoshop is what did it for me is that I could spend hours and hours and hours editing. So it was an, it takes hours and hours. Yeah, absolutely. Lov loved that and that was, that was what did it. I just thought I want to spend all of my time doing that.

Yes, this is going to want to do. There was a point where there was a product or somebody else might say a person that gave you the confidence then to go do what you had been secretly thinking about doing or maybe consciously or even subconsciously doing and there was an inflection point where all of a sudden you’re like, well shit, look, there’s digital. I think I can do this. I don’t understand that. The, the, the, the, the, the physical part of camera and film. But yeah, digitally that’s something I can do. And that was then the impetus if you will or that was the, you needed to go, I think I can do this. So there was that point and then you jumped, I did. Good for you. Thank you. And went way in over your head. I did. Yeah. That’s perfect. That’s the way to do it. No regrets, no regrets. That’s just it because he know when you lose, you win. Am I right? Absolutely. That’s what I, that’s what I preach every day. Bind you lose,

and I won’t say how old I am either, but even in your life, you have to look at where you are right now and absolutely. All my little tiny, small things that you’ve done that have led up to where you’re at right now. It’s like if you’re living a life and make mistakes, those mistakes add up to what you’re doing now. I mean, everything, right? Mistakes. You are the things that you’ve been good at, the little things you’ve tried.

It’s so hard too, isn’t it? To learn those as, as I’ve gotten older, it’s easier to learn the lessons, but it’s so hard to learn. Life throws so many lessons. Yet you, particularly when you go out and you start businesses and you just want to go, it’s Billy’s fault. I didn’t do that as Katherine’s fault. Goddammit. Catherine’s husband, Gary screwed me on that one. Right. There’s, it’s so easy in your head to go, this can’t be my fault when reality, it’s all your fault. Right? Yeah. And if it’s not your fault, you have to make it your fault. Yeah. And you have to take responsibility for everything.

Yup.

True. Absolutely. Yeah. See good. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. That’s neat. Yeah. Can’t even argue with that. When one little bad show you went out, you got in over your head, you got equipment, you had more work than you could do and then what happened?

Then, um, it can be growing a little bit cause I was just photographing weddings and soon those couples that I was wedding site photograph started having babies and they asked me, do you do baby photography? And I had to create a studio space for that and learn that and learn all the skin editing and all the stuff that’s different about delis, nodding all the stuff that’s different about photographing a baby than it is photographing a wedding. Um, and it took me about three years to feel like I was good enough to take on clients just because of the editing, the skin part. And so that grew. Um, so

yeah, that is very interesting that then the business grew out of, I’d never thought about that. People start having babies. So you said, okay, I can do that now. At some point you had more work than you can do. How would you keep up, cause you guys used to do shit. You were doing weddings every weekend seem like 40 weekends on year. If the sun even thought about shine and you were doing all without a wedding, one weekend we did five in one weekend. One weekend. Yeah. Right. How can you get invited all those two Saturdays to Sundays when we can? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So tired. Why aren’t you super rich if you’ve done all those, what’s the, tell us the last thing. You did so many weddings you must be flushed with

cash. I think that’s great though because um, as kind of that contracting point though, is that you’re always saying go and work and just work, work, work. And I think this is an interesting point of you can work really hard and yeah,

I was about to make is also another lesson along, yeah.

Most lines of business podcasts. Yes. You’re talking to somebody who’s really, not his creative but not necessarily particularly good at business. Yeah. So I was good at marketing, I was good at getting clients, I loved what I do and hopefully, you know, people were coming back, but I wasn’t very good at pricing myself. I wasn’t very good at the amount of money that I was spending, like with other people helping me with editing and going through the images, you know, the employee that I had and then all the things that are involved with the state of Oregon with having an employee. I’d like you said initially, I didn’t raise my prices through any of that. So I was working one year I worked and I took three days off and I was getting up in the morning and we’re controlling what too bad. Right. Um, and then that garage money and that year I lost money. Yeah. And my tax person that helps you with my taxes every year says, you know, this is like a profit deal. You’re like, here’s the phones to make money. Yes. So for you’re talking to a great person who doesn’t know as much about business as the creative process. Right. And I think that that’s really, really common with creative. Uh, people who are self employed do something creative.

I think it’s common for most people, right? I think most business owners or people who got into business business didn’t come to them. Meaning they didn’t they, yeah, I think there are people like me or maybe they went to high school and they had a good idea and they went to college and they kind of had a good idea and then they get out and they’re going to do that idea. Could be the kid started mowing lawns when he was in high school to a, to take his girlfriend to the Friday night dance. Most business in my exam, in my, uh, in my 30 years in business. That’s where it comes from. And so people that get into it miss the cues that very specific things that you should do first. We do them last and I’ll give you an example. Yes. In in this business there have been companies that have come and gone.

We’ve been around for 20 years and they’re in my time. There’s been companies that have gone that have outgrown me and then went bankrupt and there were companies that have passed me the opposite direction. We used to be bigger than us and then went the other way and then went bankrupt and when I would go to do these acquisitions, the a company that would sell to me, all they would talk to me about was that top line, that top line being how much revenue they had and I’d say, well that’s all fine. That’s great. I’m glad you have all that revenue. How much money do you make? Because I never care about how much revenue is on the top line member. I learned my lessons in to that. When I started the company, we did 3 million the first year, almost 4 million the year we did 8 million. The second year, we did 12 million the third year, and we did better than 14 million the fourth year, and at 14 million I was making less than zero nothing.

And I was working 20 hour days making no money. And so we had to retool the company. You’ll remember this, Kathryn, and we took it back to 8 million and 8 million. I could get my hands around it to kind of see what was going on. So I ditched customers that paid me one, two, $3 million a year, or two customers in particular made up $5 million in revenue. Wow. How’s that? Fuck that man. I’m not doing that work. I don’t even know if I’m making money on it. All I know is I need to get this thing back where I could get my hands around it because it’s not about that top line in so many companies and so many people think that we’re just gonna. All I gotta do is sell it and then I’ll figure out how to make money. No, you figure out how to make money first and then salad. How much money do I need to get that back? You say, well, Jerry, it’s an experience and Katherine had a great experience. She did. But how early in that experience, Catherine, should you recognize that and said, I’m working five. Okay. Uh, weddings, I need to do two weddings at twice the price. Right,

right. How long, I mean, the first couple of months, right? No, no years. Sorry to put you off. Yeah, that’s okay. Yeah, absolutely. What was your psychology, and this is why I loved having young kids. I know you’ll sit here and be honest with us and tell us the truth, but what, what, what’s going through your head at that point? Are you fighting? What, what, what should have otherwise been obvious to you? Was it, were you being stubborn, do you think, um, between you and Carrie, where you’re not looking at what was right in front of you and you know, what stopped you from seeing it? I’m not making any money. It seems like we doubled down when we’re given something, you know, so many times we’re given that, hey, you’re not doing that right. Okay. I’m going to do that twice as wrong.

That’s really a good question. In thinking about it since you asked me right now, I would say that it was, it was a negative, uh, belief that artists can’t make money. That’s sort of ingrained in our society. Artists can make money. Interesting. Ah, I think ID valued what I was worth that if I overpriced myself, see I’m even using the term now. If I priced myself too much, um, I wouldn’t get the work and it would stop and I wouldn’t get to do what I love. But all that is like a loop of negative thinking that the core at the core of that is that artists can’t make money. Um, but I, I light bulb went on and

we haven’t accomplished my wedding. We had conversations about that. You guys were good 18 months into it. I remember we were sitting at a, that Italian place and we had that conversation about, uh, about, yeah. To do half as much work for twice as much. Yeah.

And there’s also something that if you under price yourself too much that the other piece, people won’t perceive a value in what you’re doing so they can look at your work. I don’t think it matters what business you’re in. If it’s too inexpensive, will think they must not be very good. Or if you’re selling a product, that product must not be very good. It’s so inexpensive. So, uh, the venues that were referring clients to me for wedding photography, we’re high end venues and I was definitely the least expensive venue or vendor, at least expensive wedding photographer. But I wonder how many people passed me up because of that. So I realize my target market is a higher end and I’m probably losing people if I’m under priced I photography, she’s not very good. Yeah. If you get the way I would think of it as that if I was rich, knows hiring some awesome photographer for my wedding and I wanted the best of the best, and I get a list of photographers and automatically it’s, there’s 10,000 there’s 5,000 there’s 3000 there’s 1000 I’m not even going to consider the 1000 prize because it’s the same comparison to the rest.

There’s obviously something that they’re not up in the up and up about. So I totally get that point yet.

And there’s a, there’s a psychology behind that, and I’ll tell this story. I had somebody that was really close to me that was owed a ton of money by a person that was like the number three person at a fortune 500 I don’t want to say who it is because it’ll give it away who it was. And they were out a ton of money. And so they came to me and they were just in knots about all of this work, like $80,000 right? That they were owed. And this is a company that did maybe oh four or $500,000 a year. So roughly 20% of their money they were owed. And the person they did the work for was mega rich. And so they came to me all tied up in knots and this had been going on for months. And I said to him, well, did you go ask her? I mean, I just asked the obvious question, did you go ask her? No, it’s, you know, and it’s, it’s just so much money and it’s, it’s so important to us. And I said, I know because it’s so important to you. You don’t value it

the way that you should, which is through her eyes, through the person who’s giving you the money. We all look at the money through our eyes rather than look at it through the eyes of the person we’re getting it from. So I said to her, $80,000 is like $80 to you. I know it’s hard to fathom, but you have to understand that they make millions and millions of dollars a year. You go to her. And I said to them, here’s what I think she’s going to do. She’s going to say you’re fucking retarded for not coming and talking to me for three months while your kids are starving. Right. For a check. Io, I’m busy. I got shit to do. Right. I’d sorry I should pay you. Yes, but I don’t think about it. And she’ll write you a check and Goddammit, toot my own horn. That’s exactly what happened.

And he came back and he said, I can’t, you were exactly right. I said, that’s right cause you’re looking at money through your eyes, not through the eyes of the customer that’s paying you. So to your point, you could have probably gotten double what you were charging easily, but to you it seemed like much money. But that’s you looking at at at money your way. And the lesson here, and this is an important lesson because this, you will run into this anywhere and everywhere. People that are starting businesses, we devalue because we want that work. And so we date d value, what we bring to the table in order to land the work. And we think that’s a success. It’s not, it’s not. And there’s, and it’s, that’s not the way to look at it, but it was easy, wasn’t it to do? It’s really easy to do. It’s, I’ve given that advice. I’ve told that story 500 times to 500 different people. Yeah. Yeah. It’s really true. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you’re, so you’re figuring it out and you did what?

Raise my prices. Raise your prices and what happened? I got really good work. Yup. Yeah. And I did. And less of it. A little less of it. Yeah. Let’s have a lot. Little, not a lot. Nice. Good, good. So did you lose customers that you previously had by raising your prices? That I lost? Uh, I think of, I did. I relied on my high end venues to refer to me and I dropped even going after in any way marketing at all, uh, lower, not lower end, but a lower price point, a lower price point. People who have less of a budget to spend. So I just dropped. I didn’t spend any more money advertising like on ad words or Google, uh, or any, anything having it all to do with a lower price. I just stopped it. So I, I did get a lot less of that sort of work. Um, which was okay. Yeah. But I had done by that point, I had done enough that, that I had friends referrals too from people who, you know, I photographed the wedding, their wedding and other people were telling me about it

right now then that somebody is going to throw in my face, which is what charity, that first year and a half that she spend her two years that she spent was her learner. That was her longer, that the first three years that she spent, that was her lesson period. And that’s how she learned her lesson. I can hear that because that’s my, you know, you gotta go through it to learn it. What would your advice be? How, what could have happened to you earlier to have recognized that sooner do you think? If you could go back and do it all over again. Knowing what you know now, but understanding that you had to learn those lessons, what, what, what is there, is there an, I put you on the spot, is there something that you might have done? Was there a trigger that you might’ve had earlier or something that you can look back now and say, ah, right then that was the point that I should have realized that

this is, this goes back more to life than to business. Okay. I think that I had to learn that lesson the hard way. Uh, and I don’t think, I think I needed to have that year where I only had three days off and, you know, never saw my friends and I think, and at the end of the year lost money. So I think that I, I needed to have a heart that lesson hit hard like that. I mean, I don’t know if anybody could have told me is I probably wouldn’t listen because I was so stuck into, you know, we just going to pay more. You know, artists don’t make any money. That’s just that mindset is so strong. Okay.

I think one more ocean based on just what pop culture had taught you, which is really not the place to learn anything

isn’t, it wasn’t based on really any truth. Right. That was just based on a false belief system. Yes. Um, but those, those are hard. Those false police systems are hard to shatter. Especially maybe the older you get, they become more difficult but not impossible. Sure. So you asked me what I would have done earlier or differently, um, or no, if there’s a warning sign that you have,

could have picked up on, like what made you change that Billy went through the same thing you would tell him, go through it. You need your year to teach you a lesson. But look for this. Was there a, was there a um, a low point for me was when I had a gigantic negative balance and couldn’t make payroll the next day. Yeah. Yeah. Now that’s a lesson that’ll okay. Kick you right in the teeth. Right. But I remember that like it was yesterday. I remember, I remember praying for the sun to go down because that respite between five o’clock when the banks closed and nine o’clock the next morning when they opened, I could breathe and, and, and I had six figure payroll’s due the next day with no money in the bank. So for me that was the fuck this, I got to survive this. I gotta make my way out of this and when I do, I’m never coming back here cause this is brutal now I didn’t exactly follow that right.

Cause I always put it out there and risk but never to that extent that I get dug in so much and I learned the lessons from them. So for me that was my, if I could go back and do it again, I wouldn’t, I, I’d buy, I’d learned this lesson earlier but it took me three and a half years to figure out that I didn’t know how to make money. So I’m with you on the three and a half years. But I can point to that moment and say that was it for me that said, nope. Going forward. I ain’t touching shit unless I’m making money doing it.

Yep. Do you have that? I think it was really when that in my tax help her said, you know this, I mean she was making a joke but it really wasn’t a joke. And she said, you know this is supposed to be a prophet Dale. Yeah. And you’re showing a loss. Otherwise it’s a hobby every year. Right. And I look back on all the Saturday nights, I couldn’t get together with my friends. Yes. For years cause I’m photographing a wedding and, and all the times that I worked until I went to bed and then got up in the morning and worked, all I did was edit photos, look at photos, shoot photos and I wasn’t, I was having fun and I was excited. I had all this business and I would write all my little numbers down. Oh I made so much this month, but I really wasn’t making anything. Right. The equipment, I mean Billy knows the equipment for the first few years to build up your gear bag is really costly and it’s Kinda cool. You can write that off on your taxes, but at some point, at some point you have to make, you have to make money.

I’ll make a living

easy

from that perspective. Right? The you got the work, you got the equipment, you’re having fun, you’re doing what you wanted, you are shitting in front of editing, you’re taking pictures, you’re interacting with people. And it was almost easy. The hard part, as these guys have heard me say a thousand times, it’s easy to sell business. Yeah. It’s hard to make money. Yeah. It’s hard to sell something. It’s hard to sell. I think we did a Instagram post, I think we said it’s, it’s, it’s easy to sell something. It’s hard to sell something at a profit and that’s where the hard part comes in. So if it’s easy, you’re probably not doing something correctly. And in your case, you weren’t priced high enough now. Yes. Good. Interesting. So now what are you doing?

So now what I’m doing is the market is becoming harder not to be negative, but it just is, it’s more saturated. It’s more saturated. So a few years ago, I, every once in awhile I would tell my husband, there are so many photographers now that I really need to do something different. I need to sell things to photographers or provide a service for all of these new photographers because it’s hard to compete with them, but they’re going to need things. So over the last three years or so, I’ve been trying to figure out what that thing is. I thought about creating products that the photographer could buy. I thought about teaching. Um, I thought about all sorts of things. And in the meantime I started doing digital art where that was just for fun. Says I’m doing fewer weddings. I had more time freed up for my creative process to work.

I started doing digital art and then as I had the light bulb that I could sell digital backgrounds. Do you have general photography backgrounds to photographers that didn’t have a photography studio? So one benefit I have that still getting me work as I have a photography studio so I can photograph newborns. I have all the props, I have all the lighting. Um, I’m established, I’ve done it for a long time, so I have a client base, but the, I actually have all of these things in a studio, a lot of the new photographers coming into the market or in their twenties, they’re often women. Um, they call them click and moms. So I sort of know who my competition is and that’s who I wanted to sell to. So, um, I did research and found that people who created digital backdrops that, that have photography props for people who don’t have a studio, that they can take their own photos and use that digital backdrop or background to place their photos in that give it a high end professional look as if it were shot in a studio with some market that was very good and that people who are doing it are making money.

And um, it fits in with, like I said, everything that in my life that I’ve done. So it, I have all of these props. I have all of these ideas. I know how to work Photoshop really well. I can create this product. I know what a newborn photographer wants. I know what they need. And, um, there’s a market for it. So there’s the market, I’m realizing in my industry, the market is, is to sell to all these new people coming into the markets. So I mean, I think you could translate that to any business. I mean it’s like that basic business thing. If there’s a need fill it. I mean it doesn’t, that’s more important almost than anything is if there’s a need fill it. So I got this idea, figured out a need and I’m like completely jazzed about it and all the work that I’m doing now, I’m not making any money out yet, but it’s residual income. So I make this product, um, I can sell it while I’m sleeping to somebody in Sweden or in New York. I make it once and it’s like this residual money that keeps coming in. So as more and more photographers are coming in, I mean that’s my business. So that’s what I know. Um, the more and more people are going to need, um, this type of product and people are doing it, are doing fairly well

and that is such an important lesson. Also, uh, answered number 1200 that I give. I don’t, I’ve lost track, but, uh, when I’m asked about success and how do you get success or how do you get rich, one of the answers to, uh, let’s just say making a lot of money is you have to have somebody else earning the money for you. So billion, I’ve had this conversation and, and, and Ryan, my trainer and I have this conversation all the time. I go to Africa and hunt and I make the same money when I’m hunting in Africa as if I’m here not so awesome. Right? And yeah, and that’s how you really

put an extra few dollars in your pocket and earn that money is that when you’re asleep, somebody in Sweden is using the product that you’ve made or you’ve done, or in my case, things are happening, gases getting pumped or uh, buildings are being occupied or transportation is taking place while I’m asleep. And so that’s all value that I’m getting without me having to actually do that physical work. I did the work to get there and then somebody else is paying me for it. And that is, uh, something to aspire to when you start out. So often we want to sell our own product. US, we want to sell what we have, we want to sell who we are. The reality is figure out what you can give to somebody else to sell on your behalf or figure out what you can sell to somebody else that then they’ll, they’ll use in perpetuity and continue to pay you for it so that you sit back, which I know you deal with your feet up on the [inaudible] with your feet up in a chair doing nothing all day, but you get my point, you know, then that check will arrive or that, that, that, that electronic payment, the way things checks don’t arrive anymore I suppose.

Um, but that’s important. And I think that when you said that, that was exactly what I think about, that’s how you get ahead, if you will, is by getting somebody else to go mow that lawn and you get your little piece of it. You sell the lawn mowing and get somebody else to go mow the lawn and then you just take your touch. And pretty soon you have a hundred people out there mowing lawns and you’re not working at all and you’re just managing all, which is a full time job, but you’re getting paid not for your physical labor but for your mental labor. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of value in that. Did we have a question?

I think we just wanted to talk about um, doing what you love and starting a business, that kind of stuff. That’s a good one. Go ahead. Yeah. The doing what you love, um, because you, so photography was kind of a hobby before it ever became a business. Is that fair to say? Yes. Do you regret turning your hobby into a business? Do you regret going into photography as a business and, and you can get what I’m saying? Yeah, I do. I think that’s a really good question. I don’t have, I don’t have any regrets turning that, that, that free time activity into a full time job. No. Nope.

Even in the worst of times, what I found Catherine, even in the worst of times, I can look back on that and go and I learned some good lessons there and I can’t say it without a smile. Yeah. Boy, fucking life taught me on that one. Yeah. I think because

for me, the process of what I do is, is still really fun to me. So it’s not like I’m doing something that I wouldn’t, I’m not a TV watcher. I don’t, I just like doing what I do. I like spending my time creating. Would you say you, I’ve got it. I’ve just dying to ask you, because you’re a photographer and learning. Yeah. And you’re obviously a really creative soul. Could you

imagine not doing it? So one of my reservations I guess with that is I know that I, it’s a pretty common pattern for me. I’ll do something until I get almost professional level. I’d say fairly confident in it, um, to where I’m, I’m happy with whatever my skill set is within it. And then it turns that boring. It gets boring, if that makes sense. And is it almost becomes too easy at that point and then I look for the new next challenge. And so that would be one thing that I would fear if I would ever, let’s say go into wedding photography is led by the mind 70th wedding. It’s just mundane repeat and same old, same old and I’d be bored and done with it and wish that, I mean at that point with my knowledge that I have now, I had hired somebody else, have them do the shooting. I just said that being said like normally the kid pays attention. Normally it would just, I would get bored and then I’m just stuck in another job that I don’t like. Um, if that makes sense too. That makes sense. I would add to that though, Billy, that

anything you do can, can become monotonous. It really can. And, and what has driven me for all of these, you look, I didn’t, I didn’t grow up wanting to get into the, the transportation business, right? The transportation business kind of got ahold of me and here I am, what I have rather gone and done other things. And could I probably have done other things. Yes. But transportation is driving a car is what I understood. So I drove a car and then I thought I could make a living driving a car. And then I thought, well, I’ll try the business of driving cars and pretty soon here we are. But every day I want to be the best. I want to do the best job possible. I want to learn every lesson that I can learn. I want to see as many things as I can see and I want to experience as much as I can.

So every wedding for me would be let’s start over every day for me as a start over, I want to do everything possible today, no matter how bad yesterday was, and I compete against myself to whomever, I assume coming into work every day, I’m going to be out of business at the end of the day. Decisions I’m going to make today are going to result maybe either being in business or out of business. So I have to be on it every single day. So I would encourage people and I think that your, that a lot of people think the way that you do, particularly when you’re stuck in a shitty job. I always say do the best job possible at the shittiest job you have. Yeah, right. That Nigga just cause you have a shitty job doesn’t mean you put in half the effort, do a shitty job. And I’d go to work at Mcdonald’s and flip hamburgers when I was 16 and I want him to do it faster than everybody else did it.

I wanted to turn that shit out quicker than it could. And here I am all of these years later. So I never thought this job sucked as my feet. Literally I had holes in the bottom of my shoes cause they made you wear a dress shoes. And I didn’t have any money so I had to wear this and the Greece eats through the bottom. I’d put an, I had to put a piece of cardboard in my shoes to go work at Mcdonald’s. Oh yeah. And, but again, I did it. I didn’t complain. I didn’t do it. I didn’t say this job sucks. I was like, I’m going to fucking nail this job. And then a year in Safeway offered me a quarter more. So I went to work for Safeway and cub foods offered me a quarter more. So I went to work graveyard shift for a cup foods. And from there I worked at the corporate warehouse. At my, my point being I moved through all of these jobs. Not because I didn’t like the job, I never thought about it like that. I moved through these jobs because I was moving forward, but as able to move forward cause I fucking hammered every single cause I worked like my meal dependent on it, which in the early days my meal did depend on it. So I think there’s a way to fight that boredom by holding yourself accountable and just saying, regardless, someone’s paying me to do something, even if I don’t think it’s enough,

I got to fucking hammering. Yeah. And I think it’s creating a challenge as well for yourself and then go, yes, absolutely. And then that keeps the interest and the motivation. Right. So right on. I can’t disagree with that either. And I have to from knowing Jerry for 28 years, so anybody listening who hasn’t known Jerry for 28 years, what he said is right on. I don’t think I’ve ever heard him complain. I mean you just always give it 1000% he says, I mean that’s just a real as it can be. That is just solid. Right on. I think that that is never, I’ve never heard

you complained. I think that that is a huge benefit. I think I have a giant advantage or worry. My, my competitors, I think I have a giant advantage over all of my employees and over everybody that I interact with is, I don’t know how to, how to complain. I’ll tell you a story. I have a developer buddy of mine and in 2008 we were getting crushed, right? The whole world caved in in 2008 and if you were developing in that time or building houses, you were getting crushed and so we got crushed and you were doing twice the work for no money. Forget about twice to work for twice the money. We were doing twice the work for no money, where before we were doing half as much for a ton, right? But then the market caved. And so I remember we were downtown, the restaurants, not, it doesn’t, the bar that we went down to have lunch at and it’s not there anymore.

They’ve developed it. But, uh, it’s one of these old time Portland bars. His kids were little and my kids were little at the time and he came in, he’s like, I can’t do anymore. I mean it, and we’re on the precipice with some of these developments, right? And you have to just fucking push. And we were right on the edge and he wasn’t given it as all I could tell. He wasn’t given us all. And I said, and I told him was such. And to this day, he’ll say, Jerry, a week doesn’t go by. I don’t think of this conversation. And exactly what you said to me. And what I said to him was, when I go home at night, I look at my kids sleeping in their beds. My kids were little and I think, okay, I’m going to wake them up and tell them daddy couldn’t do it today.

I held myself responsible. Literally that was what did it. I would drive all the way to my house in Gresham. I worked downtown in 2004 my kids were little just to look at my kid’s asleep and then I’d get back in my car and drive back down to the office and work all night because that was the inspiration that I needed came from my kids to say, I’m not going. I’m going to wake them up and say, daddy couldn’t do it. So find that thing. There’s all you can always find something, some reason that you don’t feel good or some reason why you can’t do it or some reason why you can make an excuse. There’s always excuses. Everybody has one. I dare everybody to be the person who doesn’t make them. I dare everybody think how easy we say, like I’ve said before, I’m sick today.

I can’t come to work. How easy does that roll off the lips in today’s society, right? How easy do those things happen? How easy do we say I’m tired. It’s been a long weekend. I’m a little tired. I don’t suffer from any of that. And I think I really ingrained those lessons in my head. I learned them young and then I, when I was a kid or when I had kids and my business was going under and I had to just power through it, I really cemented those lessons home. And here we are, these leaves later and all these years later. And I think that’s one of the significant advantages that I have over

uh, my competitors. I’ll tell you another advantage you have is your ability. Like I started this whole thing by saying that I won’t use the word vulnerability again. I’ll try. You are that you’re amazing. Capacity to be introspective and self aware is a huge, huge, huge advantage that you have. The insight that you gain when you look inside is priceless. And like you said, why did it take me so long to not do that? To not look and see what it was that I wasn’t doing correctly to make some money doing what I love.

And that’s from somebody who was introspective. You all I am. I feel like the lesson here that were, that were, that were teaching, what we want people to hear is that even somebody who is, it’s so easy to get stubborn is so easy to not see what’s right in front of you because you blind yourself with what you believe to be reality. And I never cared about what I believed. I cared about what was right in front of me. And if that was the exact opposite of what I had just done or said, that was fine with me. I say all the time in business change today, what you changed yesterday. Do you know how hard that is to do? Let me say that again. Change today what you changed yesterday and, and so I will get and have over the years, Jerry, we just spent two weeks putting this whole thing together and, and, and finally launched it and it’s Tuesday and you want to change it.

And I said, yeah, it did it work on Monday. No it didn’t. Okay, then change it. But we put two weeks in on it. And, and, and, and this emotion and this crazy kind of energy that they’ve put into it and it didn’t work. They never see that it didn’t work. They only see the amount of work that they put into it. And I never understood that. I never suffered from that. So I’m able to say that from my experience and I’m happy and I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m a humble that you say that to me because if I said, if I were to name the two things that have put me where I am now is my ability to look at myself objectively, uh, and to self assess, following that objective introspection,

I could, I could add to the list to you have, what would that be? Common Sense.

Yeah. If you could, yeah. If we could figure out how to bottle common sense would be fat cats wouldn’t, yeah.

You could assess that though. Yeah. You preset it. Possess an innate common sense. That’s really grounding.

Boy, we’ve got to have you on the more often.

You’re fantastic. Early on it, when you got better was on, um, what you were just talking about. Somebody asked you working hard and keeping a good attitude about it. Yeah. Um, so this last weekend, you probably haven’t heard I did the 48 hour film festival. Wow. Um, so there was a group that reached out online and they said, um, they were just looking for a, a behind the scenes photographer. And so I reached out to them, said that I’m a photographer, I’d like to be involved just so I can learn the filmmaking process by talking with them. And in the week or so leading up to this event, um, I slowly took on more and more roles within their, within their group. Um, so they were already a kind of a production company. Um, it’s two individuals that own their own company and they do lots of music videos and stuff like that.

Um, and so one of them is that, that’s her full time job. So she supports herself with her creative entrepreneur and the other guy, um, I believe he’s the same way, but he also goes to school now. He does, he goes to school full time and has another job. Anyways. Um, so I slowly kind of worked up and got more and more roles within this with these are things that I’ve done in the past and these are, this is equipment that I have. I’d love to take on as much responsibility as I could for this project. Um, so we did this project and they ended up giving me what I kind of, I was asking for it cause I just wanted it as a learning experience and I went into it as a learning experience. Um, you know, it was unpaid and everything else and I just wanted to soak up as much information as I could through this experience.

And with that in mind through the weekend, you know, even though I wasn’t a part of writing the film, I was there that entire time. They were coming up with concepts and sharing ideas and pitching in my little things here and there. Um, so I was up until three, four o’clock in the morning until we got it done. And then I had passed out on their couch and woke up at 6:00 AM when the first person woke up and went and got coffee with them and everything else. And that whole weekend I had worked my ass off as hard as I could completely unpaid everything else. But just because I knew that’s what this group needed, that’s what I needed to contribute to make this any sort of to add value to it and add whatever sort of value that I could. So when Sunday rolls around and we’re having computer issues like crazy in the link, guys starting to get frustrated and pissed off cause we haven’t slept in 30 hours and we’re all jacked up on nos and everything else.

I thought that was what went through my head was, you know, everybody’s super pissed right now. He’s about to punch his computer screen and just give up and say fuck this now is the moment when I need to remain calm and just keep people moving. Just, it doesn’t matter necessarily how much I can do. We just need to keep this process moving. So our issue was that we had video footage. All of our video footage was shot in [inaudible] nine 20 by 10 80. Right, which is your normal youtube video. Um, and all the footage was like that. But the project file that he shared with me, which was about eight hours of taking that 40 gigabytes of footage and putting it down into a five minute file. So that’s eight hours of work right there when it was loaded up on my computer, which my computer could render that within five minutes, has computer, would take two hours to render that.

So that was our time saver to be able to get it turned in on time. When it came over to my computer, it stretched the footage, it changed it to a 1440 by 10 80. So everything looked like it was, you take a person and you just stretch them out. And so that was our main issue and there was nothing that we could have done or nothing that we tried that would, that would correct that. Um, so basically everybody was like, project’s over, you know, they’re pissed off, they’re tired. They’re not thinking right and everything else. Um, and so that’s when I stepped in. Okay, you finished this. I found a a semi work around, ended up doing that semi work around until it proves that it wasn’t gonna work. Um, and just try to keep things moving and eventually we did find a solution and because we kept things moving during that portion because he kept working on audio because I still color graded the footage and did anything that we possibly could during that time. Once we found the solution, had this solution, we applied everything on top and got it finished and La. So last night was the filming, they showed it downtown, um, Hollywood theater. And so it was like, I think 15 films all got shown

and all of those are start to finish a collaborative process all done from writing. Yup. Acting, going through everything, costuming in 48 hours for the complete film.

They have no idea what it was going to be. Amazing. Friday night you go and you pick a genre and then they tell you that required character Ricard line of dialogue and I required item that has to be in the film and then you go, right.

You know, you said you went into it to learn and immerse and pick up as much as you can. But it sounds like from what you’ve talked about about what you learned really what you learned mostly about with yourself. I mean you learned how you can calm everybody down. How you, because of that calmness and your ability to pull everything together. Um, it got the project finished. So it wasn’t even necessarily something that just technical that you came out learning, you learned about leadership quality you have in yourself and then they’ll, Plato was trying to get it

and, and the, the importance of, of all of that beyond just the, the team helps skill is kind of the deal. Was that out of everybody that came in, worked for this company essentially that they are when last night after the film was over, after everybody had left, did they talk to me and they’re like, we’re doing a project this coming up time. This next one might not be good, but we want you on any other projects that we do and we only do paid work. So they want me to help with anything that I’m open to hope with because of that work ethic that I put in on that random one offs. Fabulous to tell you how few people

have, I’ve got some advice should right along those lines when I was a kid that I have followed my entire life, which is be the rock that the water crashes against [inaudible] and nobody wants to be that rock. I’ve used that. I’ve used that my entire life. We’ll have to do there. There you go. There’s an Instagram post. Uh, be the rock that everybody, Oh, we did?

Yeah. To Go. Hundred Instagram posts. It’s good

key is, and that’s what you’re talking about when the whole world’s going to shit. Katherine knows this about me. When the whole world’s going to shit, I’m unflappable. That’s it. I don’t get excited. I don’t get low. I don’t get high. You stay calm because there’s no money in emotion. There’s no money in getting excited. There’s no money and letting how you feel impact what you do. You can’t think clearly. It’s so in your case, we’re the world’s coming apart. Your job is to stay calm. My job when the whole world is coming, I’m gonna be part is simple, stay calm, and not only do I stay calm, everyone around you stays calm. I step out of it. It all turns into a mad house. And then I stepped in the middle of it and it’s like, I dunno, like magnets, you know, kind of pushing everybody out and just this circle of calm, I don’t do anything anymore.

I don’t even have to do anything other than just be present. And everybody else feels that calmness. And that is a skill that few people have because it’s so easy to say. Very impressive when you watch it, man, react on his emotions as they said in a is as a, they said in the movie seven, right? Very impressive to watch. You get so excited Brad Pitt and act on your emotions and there’s no value there. None at all. You can’t even when the world’s caving in on you because you’re not making any money and you’re working your ass off, you still have to power through and in order to do that, you have to set that emotional part of you aside. And I think we confuse emotion with energy. We infuse emotion with who we are and personality and I’m just an emotional person. Well, good luck then, right?

Knock yourself out. Use that emotion when you’re doing your photos, use that emotion when you’re telling the bride how to stand and use that emotion. When you’re painting your person and you’re doing your thing and you’re working the right, don’t use that emotion where it works against you. That’s where the, that’s where the confusion comes from. Well, I’m just an emotional person. No, be emotional when I have you go out and sell and present and do that part of it. Don’t be emotional when you come back and you have to do the little pieces in the nitty gritty because that’s where it will most adversely affect you. So good for you. That’s exactly what you should be doing.

Yeah. And then you said you did this thing to learn and just throw yourself into and now you’re going to get paid work from it. I would assume if that’s a combination of how technically good you were at problem solving and what good leadership skills you had that you found in the moment to solve the crisis. Definitely. Yeah, it was, it was awesome. And mixture of, of networking. So

you’re getting people just to meet me in the first place because there was too long and that I was producing work but never meeting anybody. And so it never went anywhere. I’m a mixture of that mixture of, yeah, the, the skills that I have gained by just doing either my trade for print type stuff. So just my, um, whatever I could for free just to learn. Um, my work here and just kind of like combined experience. Um, and then yeah, mixing that all into a project where I think it’s key for me, it’s key how I sell myself, if that makes sense. Especially in these kind of projects and collaborations that I’ve been doing. I’m usually working with people who are a lot more experienced than I am, so I don’t go into it at all trying to act like I know what the fuck I’m talking about. I sell myself short and over perform and that leaves a much longer personal reminder to people. Somebody can look back and say, I expected this and got this rather than I expected this and got last. Um,

I think that’s key. Rather work with somebody who knows nothing and we’ll listen. Then somebody who knows somebody who knows everything and does it. Yeah. I’ll take the dumb person who’s willing to listen over the smart person who will. Yeah. Every time.

And it’s staying quiet when you know that you’re not needed and adding them when you know it is shut up and learn. Yeah. During their whole writing process. I had sat there quiet and then it wasn’t until there was only certain moments where I was like, this would be cool and I would just throw out that idea and a lot of those ideas made it into the film. Yeah. Funny Story. Actually the opening scene to our film was a shot that I took just fucking around as my own shot, as my own personal footage that I wanted and they saw it while editing and they’re like, that’s opening scene.

I think that’s where I fell asleep. [inaudible] yeah. Then how long? It’s been an hour and four minutes. No. [inaudible] how I say we have to do more of these because that hour goes by. So like business podcast, you had it on a guest. It says, I just know nothing about business and we’re losing money for years. Perfect. That’s what, that’s why we wanted you here because your, your stories are uh, an example and an are indicative of the mistakes and the learning that the average person has to go through getting into business. And if we can do anything from this podcast is give some people some guidance to at least stop and maybe ask a question to stop and maybe read something. So unfortunately though, our time is up, I can’t believe it. I was so landlords. So you have to come back, come back round that you invited me and really honored that you invited me back.

All right. And you’ll come back. Absolutely. Do it again. Glad to hear it. That wraps up this episode. I got my little things he kept and I get to, where’s my piece of paper, asshole. I cleaned the table again. I gotta reach over here to get it. Every time I cleaned the table, this guy freaks out my writeup. Perfect. No, I can’t see it on my glasses. I got it memorized. I think this wraps everybody. Seriously. This wraps up this episode and I’m sorry to see it. And uh, that hour went too fast. Thank you for tuning in. Be sure to check us out on Youtube, Instagram, Facebook, iTunes, Google and fuck reddit. Uh, and Spotify. We gotta go, we gotta replace Reddit. What Spotify trouble. He keeps saying, fuck reddit. Every pot clock up on that and I’m pissed at Red Ready? Just like the birthing place of the Internet.

Oh God. Damn. I’ve got to find a different sub reddit to go into the one I’m in. Pisses me off my sub reddit. How’s that? Yeah, there you go. Yeah. And slash business, like the overall general most general business category that you can be in, and we just need to find a title that, yeah, we got to tighten that up. You can find me all of this at Jerry Brazy Vrac I e on all of them. Send us your questions. Two questions@jerrybrazy or check us out on jerrybrazy.com remember everybody opportunities are everywhere. Catherine will tell you this is apple loot. Absolutely true, but you got to go get them peace, peace, peace out.

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